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Welcome
to the Treatment which //My guest, director Steven Soderbergh has made 25 films
since 1989. Sex, Lies, and Videotape. He probably has made four since I made
this introduction. His newest is Magic Mike. It's good to have you back. Steve,
thanks so much for doing this.
Yeah, it's always fun.
I
was thinking about this// after seeing it. And there's strand(?) in your films
that people tend not to talk about, which is you like talkers in the movies
often. I'm thinking about Demián Bichi as Fidel in Che. I'm thinking about Brad Pitt in the Ocean's
movies. He didn't talk a lot before then. I'm thinking also about Channing
Tatum here who basically played stoic, strong, silent types. And you got him
talking and it's release of another side of him as an actor. What is it you
like about getting people who are not associated with talking to talk?
Well...
I especially like in a movie when people who aren't necessarily very articulate
or talking a lot. In this case, you got a character who is stripping to make
money but ostensibly considers himself an entrepreneur and he has several other
businesses that he's involved with. So a lot of his conversation revolves
around not acknowledging that stripping is kind of his primary source of
income. It's kind of... taken over his life in a way I
don't think he really wants to admit, so. (great insight, It's enough to
give me nightmares. I must remember this and act accordingly.) In addition to
the fact that Channing did this job when he was in his late teens, I think he understood
this guy, how this guy would talk in a way he might not normally so I think he
was just open in a way that he might not be playing a role that's been written in
a specific way and he's coming in afterward.
I
guess I wast thinking too just about,// you guys worked together in Haywire
which was the film just before this.
What impressed me about him was that he sort of showed up with some,
some ideas and some, some suggestions I thought that were really simple and
smart. And he has a great attitude, great attitude about himself, great
attitude about the work. I sort of became a sort of fan of him personally
fairly quickly. And that's sort of how all this came about, was conversation we
were having on the set about is his production company and what they were up to.
And he mentioned a movie about a male stripper set in Florida. I just thought, That's
a really good idea. I haven't seen that. I'm always looking for stuff I haven't
seen. I just haven't seen that. It felt like a really good movie idea in terms
of imagery, music, activity, sex. It was better than a magazine article or
documentary or TV sh... (TV shit?) It seemed like a really good movie idea. And,
um, he had somebody else involved with it at the time. He called me a year
later and said, (This is now an open assignment. Are you still interested?) I
said, Yeah. But we gotta go right away. Like, we gotta be shooting in five
months. So from the first conversation to delivering the film was ten months.
So it all happened fairly quickly.
It's funny too (What's funny?) because the other thing I thought about
was, it's, we talked about Godard here when you were here in the past. This seems
Bressonian to me. Almost Bressonian musical.
Bressonian stripper movie.
It's a whole new genre.
I
never would have sold it that way.
You're right, you never would have sold it that way. (never wanted or
never been able? Ambiguity in meaning)
Um,
I like to... there's a lot of sequences where I'm letting a lot of people
occupying the frame and letting things sort of play a little bit. And I guess
that comes from, I like watching people. I like eavesdropping, you know. And, this
was the case where you got these guys backstage that are in thongs. Anything
they talk about with a straight face becomes funny because it's just a weird
context.
You,
You, You demonstrate that, when you take us into special bullpen, when a guy's
his thong in a sweing machine. His gold Lomay(?) thong in a sewing machine.
Well,
Channing's mantra, he said, when he was doing that, for, for a living was "It's
only weird if you make it weird."
My
guest to made it weird is director Steven Soderbergh, his new film as director
is Magic Mike. You can also hear the Treatment at //.com. But there's that, in
the last few movies, even those surreptitious aspect to them. Haywire is an
action film which, you know, camera is hiding in a corner a little.
Yeah,
I guess, I'm trying, I'm trying to be judicious about when I decide to get
really close someone because, when I do, I want to have an impact whether it's
in a scene or, in the case of Che, the entire movie. I'm sort of
reverse-engineering back (The fuck does this mean?) from the moment where I
think we really physically close to performer to get what we want. Close-ups are the most powerful tool in your arsenal and, as
a result, everytime you use it without it having an effect, you diminished it.
(Endless close-ups means trash movies.) And so, I, one of the biggest things I
think about were when we were shooting is, When am I gonna go in and why?, so
that I kind of designed it in a way the audience just suddenly feels in a
moment when they feel need to be close instead of, just, all the time.
It's
funny (What's funny?) because//movie star work is you made them less
presentational than movie star films often are.//Ocean's almost//surveillance
camera.
Yeah,
that's an example. There is very few close-up in Ocean's movies. On, the,
usually, because I have a lot of people in the frame but even when I don't, I
feel like actor's bodies are important part of their acting. I like actors who
use their bodies well because I want to take advantage of that.
I
just found... For me.... When you start shooting yourself, it feels, there's
something about being behind the camera, own director of photography and
operator that made you look for different kinds decisions to make as filmmaker.
Well,
that was a, that decision to start shooting a long time coming. That's how I
started. I shot my short films. But, you know, I worked for very good
cinematographers and been paying close attention... had a long term plan to get
back and doing that job. For a couple of reasons. One of them is just the, the intimacy
that it provides, me and the actors. To be physically close to them is really
helpful. Um...
Is
it helpful.//two of you//I've heard often, directors
will say, when actors get savvy enough, they just talk to DP instead of talking
to a director.
There's
a little bit of that. And there's certainly in gaining a momentum in removing
one layer of explanation in the process. You know, the trade-off is I'm not Harry
// and
Manuel // What I get is just speed and sense of, I'm
not really interested in things being perfect. I'm interested in them feeling real.
As a result, I'll try things and let things go no card-carrying DP would ever
allow. So I like that. It's taken me a while actually to walk into a certain
situation, look at the real light that is in the situation and go "That's really ugly. And that's what we're doing."
By
the way, it's the Treatment. I'm talking to Steven Soderbergh. Counting down to
his last film, I guess.// But going back to the early films, who, I was, I was
really worried you were trying to get.//Now I find that I can, I, //I'll very deep
focused//corners are slightly out of focus. Either side of the frame is out of
focus.
Yeah,
yeah, the past few years, I've been going for very shallow depth of field and
shooting wide open. And using, ,um, this will sound terrible for the company's providing
these lenses but I've been purposely using lenses that are older, less sharp,
less unforgiving than some of the newer lenses. First of all, digitals become
so, resolutions are so extreme, at times I feel like it's almost too much. And I'm
trying to soften image a little bit. I think, when you work in shallow depth of
field, image seems to have more depth.
It
feels to me, incredibly sort of unique way in making film, not that unique
needs to be amplified.//it feel like that sort of thing, too //eavesdropping//You
move the camera to the person who is listening rather than the person who is
talking off.
I
think that's a ... There is some very, very good things going on TV. There's a traidition
in cutting television on every line that is not very cinematic. When I was
growing up and watching movies like Carnal Knowledge [(1971, Menmotechnique)].
There's a scenes there in which, the camera is on the person that is not
talking and the people on the other side of the frame are talking. It makes you realise you don't have to see everyone say everything
all the time. They don't even have to be in the same room. (great
insight)
Catch-22
[(1970), Mnemotechnique], even there is in Carnal Knowledge//You do the
commentary on Catch-22 video, home video version of the film. But I just
remember that as you were talking about this, there big rooms, and there
somebody, in front of the camera//off screen.
Yeah.
I like that. First of all, you talk to any director and they'll tell you that
one of the qualities that you look for, one of the
qualities all really good actors have is they're great listners. That
doesn't mean they listen in an itali-cised way. And they're just very good at listening
and not, It doesn't look like they're waiting for other person to finish so
they can talk. It's actually something Sasha Gray did really well. She was a
good listner.
You're talking about Girlfriend Experience.//That's the one example,
that maybe Bubble, protagonist is doing more listening and talking// she is
very much Tabu Rorasa(?)//.
I
like that. It's a very, I think, movie, Magic Mike generous towards its
character and I wanted to have that Hal Ashby quality to it. You can tell that he
really loved perfomers. He gave them a lot of freedom but he was the best
editor in the world. He knew how to make sure it didn't preen(?) out of
control.
That's
how he start out.
You
look at Last Detail, specifically. That's just organised but shaggy, kind of, movie.
It's perfect.
In
a weird way, you're waiting for a jokes to land in The Last Detail. And which, something
you seem to lean toward as well.//You're not sure when the punch line////it
becomes a way of creating unconventional tension for you, doesn't it?
You
find yourself laughing, in the case of The Last Detail, at just how true it is
and so the issue of one-liners really does kind of just go away. If you have a
great sort of premise and three great performers. Let's talk about the scene
where they get drunk in the hotel room on the first night, which is a long
sequence.
It
looks like it comes out of Bergman. It's so long.
But it's hilarious. It gets progressively stranger as it goes
on because the bevaiour is so real. (accurate) I always think of that
when you're in a situation like this. That's really. It's character based. Jokes
are, Jokes are coming organically out of the situation. We didn't sit down
beforehand and make a list of jokes we wanted in the movie.
But
you gotta sit down and make a list of where, the movies//always got to get
somewhere. These jokes basically//Movies gotta dictate//as they're going along,
don't they?
Well,
that's where knowing where the ending is really helps, you know. As you create
these scenes, whether it is the writing level or a shooting level. The fact
that you know exactly where you're gonna end up emotionally and tonally allows
you to sort of filter ideas as you're going,// all in support for the last
feeling you wanna leave.
I
don't know how to end but I know when to take a break. My guest is Steven
Soderbergh. It's the Treatment. There's more. Stay with us.
You're
listening to the Treatment with Elvis Mitchell.//KCRW, Santa Monica.
These
conversaions always go too fast. With Steven Soderbergh, who is joining me after
very long time away. His newest film is Magic Mike.//I guess at this point
audience know what it's about.
Magic
Mike... is about a guy, um, who needs to find a new dream.
It's
really about two guys finding a new dream.
Well,
one guy seem, feels like he's found his dream and the other guy, in the course
of watching that happen, realises maybe he needs a new one.
Yeah,
it's really kind of mentor-protégé film, mentor realises he doesn't wanna do
this anymore. Protégé falls love with it. It really is, interestingly, a lot of
the behaviour reminds me of being on movie set. How best I put this? Self-directed
behaviour.
Inside
joke. Band humour, I think is another phrase for it. It's a very insulated
world. But a family at the same time. You can understand appeal of it. It seems
fun.
Bunch
of guys who have contempt for themselves and contempt for the audiences. You
haven't done that //You've made films, people who are professionals. That's
something definitely you're attracted to. People very good at what they do but
respect their professions. We can tick them all up. Out of Sight or The Limey.
And this is the first one I can think of which, characters who don't have real
respect for what they do.
Oh,
yeah, they're really owning it. (own what?) Let's put it that way.
Did
you think it was time to make movie about something like that?
No,
it just, look, it just seems organic to the job. And, so, I didn't want to
impose myself on it by applying a templet that I have applied somewhere else because
it didn't seem really appropriate, you're right. You know, I think, men,
generally speaking, more than women, tend to define themselves by what they do.
And here, I thought, there are a lot of interesting things going on because of
sort of objectification issues flipped. And there's a very different, as we're
seeing now with EL James books, this is in conversation a lot now. The role of
fantasy in the life of a female. And working on this film, a lot of us talked
about was the difference in (between) the male fantasy and the female
fantasy as it pertains to strip clubs. Clubs with
female strippers that cater to men, you will see men mostly alone whereas women
who go to male strip clubs always go in groups, they never go alone. There's a
sense that, when women come to these clubs, it's an hour and a half or two
hours of some fantasy, when it's over that fantasy is over and and they go home
and they've dropped it . There's no sense, when they're watching it, their wanting
to continue this experience beyond the end of the show whereas, I think you can
argue that, when men go to strip clubs with women, there's some other narrative that is going on that involves them
somehow wanting to continue this experience beyond the performance they're
seeing.
It's funny too (What's funny?) These guys.. and, and, each one of these
dancers, they have a story. //each of these narrative, they sort of have
different names but affect the same ad. It's kind of by the yard was his, it was
just a given that your routines needed to have stories.
That's one of the things I thought interesting when Channing started
describing this to me. Whether it's fireman, guy in the navy, the cop. Unlike
the male strip clubs, girl just comes out go to the poles and that's it. There's
no (laughter) narrative there. You know, clubs that cater to women, there has
to be sort of a story. (Enlightning on the nature of female?) I thought that
was interesting as well.
It's the Treatment. We're talking narratives and various applications with
Steven Soderbergh. His new film is Magic Mike.//I just find myself very
fascinated by that. Bunch of guys do this sort of thing. I guess one thing you
have in common with all your characters//Pursuit of their golas are incredibly
short-sighted. I mean, I can't really think//Exception possibly Erin Brokovich.
One
of the things that defines your character is what you do when you don't get
what you want. Like how you respond to that really says enormous amount of you,
I think, as a person. I'm interested in that in general and it shows up a lot
in the films that I have made. And this was, this was, it seemed like a really
good example of that. It's a gradual process for him. There isn't one thing that
starts making Mike wonder what he's doing and why. If he hadn't run into this
kid, he probably wouldn't ask these questions at all, that was a totally random
event. He also makes the mistake a lot of us make, which
is meeting someone and seeing some superficial commonalities that make you
believe you are just like this person.
The
kid says, You're my best friend now. Mike for him is a goal. Being that. But
that's a goal you pursue from night to night.
Mike thinks this kid is like him when I was
his age.
//Instant family. incredibly artificial. When
you walk away oftentime, these relationships completely dissipate.
Oh,
absolutely. And he finds out this kid's not like me at
all, actually. And the way he is like me is I'm not happy with myself. It's
a weird... I don't know all of this stuff, you know, obviously a lot of the chatter
about the movie is sort of female-based, well, gay men and straight women. (deviation?)
There, It's interesting to, like, producers call me and read, comments that are
going back and forth. One person will say "I hope the movie's good."
and next person will say "I don't care if it's any good. I just want to
see these kinds...." (laughter) 'Cause, obviously, I want to wind stuff
into it because it's not something you toss over your shoulder as you are walking
out of the theater. Degree to which people who are going to see the film interested
in that stuff, I guess, will find out.
I
guess/// you chose not to heat this up in a conventional way that you could
have. I mean, you created kind of these physical heat in heist movies, or in Contagion,
or in Haywire. Rather than doing these kind of things, creating artifical
tension, jacking up what's going on the screen, you don't do that here.
Well,
I guess I felt inherently that material is pretty volatile or at least it's
something that it's gonna get a reaction without making any louder than it is.
Did
you think you would be cheapening it somehow if you did that?
I
wanted you to have it both ways. I wanted you to have experience vicariously
being in that club but I didn't want you to feel dirty.
But
it's funny. (What's funny?) When I think about your movies, when I think about your
characters, affected kind of pride authorship which I would depend on(?) you. Which
is this one thing that, There's a, a, a degree of accomplishment that
characters// Does it feel like that makes sort of in a weird way valedictory
statement for you?
No...
or rather, I don't, I can't. (Laughter of Mitchell) If I, If I, If I started
thinking that way, I'll be in trouble.... Look, every since Che, really, I
haven't been looking for subjects that are quote unquote important. Even Contagion,
I tried to push it as far into genre as I could.
//genre
films, including this in its way.
Oh,
absolutely. Because, coming out of that experience, I just felt done with this,
sort of, lack of a better term, important, self-serious movies. And I've been
looking around, I mean I had some stuff already, I was looking for material
that would be just more fun. Which is why I really jumped at this. I'm glad Liberace
movie is coming up because that's gonna be a lot of fun.
It's
the Treament. We're talking about stepping off the stage.//You brought up EL James.
I just find myself thinking about these things that you've done in these last
few films. These films I've been, expressly, they are more motivation driven
than character driving. Full of archetype, as a matter of fact. What's the
pleasure in making these films for you?
Well,
that's the trick. Can you build on these pillars in a way that's, that's
interesting and doesn't feel old, doesn't feel like it's copy. I mean, that's,
that's the goal. How do I make this distinctive? How do I make it specific? How
do I make it feel like nobody else would have done it exactly this way? That's,
That's, you know, when you're growing up and seeing films starting to watch
them something other than entertainment, it's that thing that starts to emerge.
Seeing, you know, Dr. Strangelove when you're fourteen,
feeling him behind every decision that's on screen, like, really feeling it,
feeling singular (wrong word?) intelligence behind what you're looking at makes
a gigantic impression and you begin to notice that there is a real difference
between movies that have that and movies that don't.
Do
you feel, I mean, // preparing to make major shift in your career.
subconsciously selecting these totemic
(wrong word) films to do?
You
can kind of argue either way. I would say on the one hand, that I don't, in the
making of decision whether or not to mkae forward, I don't have to think for
very long. It's usually pretty immediate. It's either no or yes. That's it.
Now, you can also argue that, as a result of things that I have and experiences
that I have had in the past, that decision is sort of forgone conclusion in a
way. Because, if you take into consideration, genre I haven't worked before
would be even better. You know, immediately you're excluding a lot of things so
my yeses and nos would be fairly predictableif if you were to know that the
things people were coming to me with.
I
guess the question obviously is, this is basically stepping away,//walking away
from it in to-tale(?).
I,
uh... I'm not gonna come back unless I can come back as different filmmaker. I've
reached the point where I need to just annihilate everything that's come before
and if I can't show up with a brand-new brain, then I won't. There's a more of
a chance, if I start directing again for something other than theater, I'll
probably end up back in television. There's a lot of great stuff going on TV.
//You've
done in TV. Case 4 is full of people talking all the time. It was really fun. It
was like, you got real people to emulate screwball comedy. And, tt's why, I
wonder, was it something you had in the house, in movies, that love of chatter.
I
think a little bit of both. Yeah. Yeah. I like a good talker. But I think,
unfortunately, a lot of people think they are good talkers, so. And the people
who really you wanna hear talk invariably don't want to talk.
How
do you mean?
I
remember with horror, in 1991, we were doing re-shoots for Kafka, I ended up on
a plane from Prague to London with Tom Stoppard. We talked to each other on the
plane. I spent the afternoon out there and as I was being driven back to London,
I realised that I had done all the talking. That he
just sat there and asked questions for, like, three hours. I was 28.
What did I have to say? But he's like that, and, so. Those are the ones you
really got to try and draw out.
We're
out of time. Thanks so much for doing this.
Thanks for having me. Things will be a lot different.
I
hope we get to do it again before you step away from this //reincarnation you
choose to//
Two
more shots.
Okay,
you'll come back.
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